In this week's hangout our guest is bitcoin advocate Rick Falkvinge, founder of the Pirate Party and author of 'Swarmwise: The Tactical Manual to Changing the World' to talk about crypto-currencies, ledger conflicts, civil liberties, freedom of speech, pirates and more. Show will be hosted by regular host Paul Buitink and former model and privacy activist Ancilla Tilia.
Transcript
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welcome everybody to this weekly hang out about Bitcoin finance liberty and so much more today's guest to see if you want u think ur pirate and author Rick fog finger my costa de should be a sailor tilia but she hasn't joined the show yet but she's trying to so hopefully she Lua join soon she's a former Dutch model and privacy advocate who recently fled to Berlin Germany our focus today will be on civil liberties freedom of speech and how Bitcoin can replace or at least improve the nation-state and their Ledger's fewer scan ask questions of course using the Q&A tool and don't forget to subscribe to this channel and follow us on Google+ so you will never miss a single episode rig welcome thank you Paul it's great to be here I mean we we spoke a little bit in Netherlands last time and I mean bitcoin is taking a lot of flack right now the ledges are taking a lot of flak and I don't think that's fair i mean if you're looking at the the internet dot-com bust in that started on May 31st 2001 we can we can sort of see in hindsight that the internet turned out pretty okay after all so I'm totally psyched on the subject on speaking to you and to answer tilia again and everything about this thank you for having them a show well it's it's great pleasure and it was good to catch up with you and Holland unfortunately you were a bit a bit blue after the after presentation so you had to go into your hotel and quickly afterwards so it's great we can catch up now and possibly dodge viewers can ask um of the questions that am didn't have time to ask for lost time at me matter with your involvement Pirate Party movement worldwide are you still involved than what you currently do for the bar I found so I founded the Swedish Pirate Party on january first 2006 we had the I sort of looked at the numberphile chairs in Sweden at that time which was 1.2 million and figure that that they were actively demonized so if just one in five frankly were pissed off enough at not being represented in legislature we would have two hundred twenty-five thousand votes and that would be enough to start changing law three half years later we did get two hundred twenty-five thousand nine hundred and fifteen votes so it was pretty good pretty good on target there and what I didn't expect was for this to start spreading just like you say I mean it's not spread to 70 countries with various varying degrees of success various degrees of nason see various degrees of maturity obviously I mean when you have the movement this young you can't expect everybody to have solid structure front from the get-go so what I'm doing now in this movement is essentially being the founder I mean I stepped down from the position as party leader in the pits which prior party on january first 2011 to the died five years after i founded it I don't think you should be doing the same thing more than five years so these days I'm traveling and speaking about the ID is our free of freedom of speech civil liberties and generally the what I call analog equivalent rights how the civil liberties we had in the analog world must carry over to our children's environment in the digital world and unfortunately politicians are absolutely clueless as to that topic right and do you see yourself ever returning to the political stage well what is political I mean I'm arguing for a better society I keep building public opinion I keep arguing the points of civil civil liberties I think that's rather political and even though I may not be running for office at the time being but I'm certainly doing political work exactly you know and I've been listening to your show a Liberty report thank you for that service is really cool because they're relatively short they're like bite-size whenever I have a free moment I can watch an episode which you come across as almost libertarian do you agree or better yeah I think we all I think the community in general is heading in that direction I mean with Bitcoin with the internet with decentralization as it happens on every front ball I think we are starting to realize that the nation state has frankly overstated its own importance as we as we grow up through our formative years we're gradually starting to see the illusion of the necessity of everything the nation-state aspires to be I think we can do a lot of those things better ourselves frankly and Bitcoin just being one of those I mean you have the postal system which was and is a behemoth in many countries along came the email and just basically kicked it out overnight you have Bitcoin looking to do the same with financial services your hard lots and lots of services on on the net which is frankly obsolete Inge the concept of public service where you had a governmentally quality-assured news channel and I mean this is just being obsoleted yeah and and so basically we a lot of things we can do ourselves by using new technologies and by decentralizing feelings using our own Ledger's and but then they will still be there's still a lot of people within the pirate party of course that want to redistribute income for example through through basic income they said something you support to basically income is a very interesting idea it obviously does require force in order to collect taxes so you can't be an anarchist and support basic income redistribution by force you can support a voluntary basic income like Beth nations is trying to achieve now I'm very much following data following that experiment with a lot of interest but yes I mean when you're talking about a unconditional basic income a lot of people thinking think of it in terms of mooching off / slacking off just basically lying on the couch all day doing nothing I have slightly different perspective on an unconditional basic income I see it as a basic guarantee a basic guaranteed income which essentially promotes innovation in a society promotes risk-taking and we know from building the internet from building technologies that any society that promotes entrepreneurship will have a head start so that's how I regard unconditional basic income I see it as a way to get a competitive advantage for society purely from from a libertarian standpoint if you like purely from a decentralized standpoint and not at all in the way of making sure that people don't have to work that it just doesn't work like that I mean if you're looking at there are about ten people ten percent of people who don't work whether they are employed or not frankly and it these are the poor these are the guys who are going from job to job and who don't work whether whether they are employed or not these ten percent will not work with an unconditional basic income but we can see that the rest of the population do work over and above what's required no matter what their formal employment is and I don't think that psyche is going to change but the ten percent then will receive the unconditional income if it were up to you they would being unconditional but I think that would be a good thing to be honest if I can be a bit cynical that would get them off the workforce so they would not be they would be able to lie on the couch which means that they would not be hidden during production as they are today right we got a question from legal blauer he's a he's a Dutch pirate maybe you probably know that he asked shoot income this base in them start in a country or does it have to be implemented on a global scale because of course you can imagine that if it's if it's in one country especially Europe where does free movement of people then it will work as an as a as a magnet to do to people that just want to make use of it and they will then migrate to Harlan's which implements something like that I'm not sure if would you know I mean it's a very interesting question as in the competitiveness but you can also easily observe that this has been tried it was tried on a small scale in Canada for instance in 1970s something called min come and it was a shot for moral reasons essentially as the political administration shifted but people didn't move in droves to that city just because there was an unconditional basic income there so the evidence speaks against that gut feeling at this point at least right so that's all coming about about government's more in the nation states you write a lot of being your articles about how governments over time have monopolized control over Ledger's out a centrally control values titles identities assets all that so you also mentioned bit nation briefly already can you explain how how blockchain technology again seriously disrupt this dis dis status quo and how we can use other Ledger's to fulfill some of these tasks that our government that government solemn oh I'd absolutely love to talk about that we had 30 days on this program right thought it was 30 yes month it's a month episode this yeah it's a long as they're cool cool I might make it so you can observed on Power has always been in two things it has been in the ability to tell people what is true and what is false as in having the information advantage and has it has been in the power to dictate who owns what controlling the ledger the Internet has shattered the information advantages which is why we're seeing essentially war on the internet it used to be that if you could control what is true and what is false you don't have to own anything because you're already a god among men or on this planet you can have anything you want because you can you can determine what's true in people's minds so the ability for everybody to broadcast their own truth has shattered this monopoly that used to be or an oligopoly following the free the the printing press so that's the first step the second step which was seeing now is that break the breakup of this monopoly on who owns what it used to be that the nation-state was formed or the roots that modern nation-state world was formed when you had judges the Crown's judges going out of villages in the medieval ages and settling disputes I mean that's what the judges were there for initially right that there wasn't even any criminal law to begin with it was seen as a civil dispute if you kill somebody but from that particular family they was settled by an exchange of property yeah it was money for example exactly exactly exactly so criminal law didn't initially exist it was all about transfer of property and once the these judges representing the nation-state had established that they had the power to move property they had the power to note to control who owned what it also quickly became apparent that the nation-state didn't have to ask for taxes anymore the nation-state could order taxes to be paid to it and so you had this transition from the feudal state where serfs were working for the local Lord of the land to a into a nice and modern nation state government where it commanded taxes to be paid as a direct result of being able to transfer property from people it could all suddenly also transferred property from people to itself so hence the control of the ledger the control of who owns what and having the ability to re-write the ledger is what the modern nation state government is built on it has built a lot on top of that afterward but that's what we're drudes where it's rude fine so with Bitcoin and the blockchain we are seeing then modern government being reduced to spectator of the ledger rather than an authority over the ledger and they are no not going to let that go or without a fight so that this is gonna get really ugly I mean if you thought the internet was bad when it was just about who owns the newspapers essentially wait until you see the fight over who owns the money who owns the land imagine one land registry's go on the blockchain I mean thatthat should it's a effectively just a matter of time Landry luminous mini go ahead yeah well it's just an example for example I can take Holland let's say I own a property I need to right now it has to be registered with the public lands registry how how can we make sure that we move it from dead leger to a new letter B it block chain or athyrium whatever how we're going to to to take care of that process that's the thing right I mean you cannot fight against the existing system if you want to replace the existing system you don't fight it you build something new that I'd competes it just like Bitcoin it just like the internet did and just like we're all doing all the time by decentralizing we're essentially being non-compliant with central power so you can observe in Africa for instance that land registry does not effectively work so there you have a brilliant chance of just leap frogging the legacy systems and building something new from from the get-go but its leader and weekends right and so how are we going to do it right let us take the United States as an example instead if you if you're looking at the United States land registry is a mess it's usually owned in several several levels with the mortgage mortgaging bank and then to a mortgage Institute and onward in several levels and frankly Piper's have been lost and mixed up to the point where you're seeing and we've seen we've seen these horror stories where the bank just repossesses the entirely wrong house where somebody has no idea of who owns a plot of land because the it's so messed up and out of such a mess you would be able to build something new just at competing the old frankly and whether whether such an initiative comes from well I you wouldn't see it until it had happened yeah or maybe like a small nation state an island or one is yet so many exactly exactly it can't you say so now we're just going to times end everything on a block chain and exactly you'd probably have easier time succeeding in small asian like Iceland or even one of the microstates in Micronesia just by demonstrating this as a proof of concept and then sort of percolate up and scale from there yeah and that's so the court is a lot of other goods that you don't have formally registered with the government which you can register in any type of block chain so we can of course start and bitcoin is there is an example of that of course we can first DM try to work with as many of those goods as possible and maybe later on when people are getting use to it we can then make a step towards making some of these government Ledger's up obsolete as well absolutely but however this is not this is not at all without its share of problems I mean if you have land where private where a private key signifies your ownership of that land and you lose that private key does nobody owned the land anymore there are problems like that that need to be solved this is not clear-cut at the moment it's just a it's just a sea of brilliance possibilities I mean if you have a Bitcoin and lose the key to that Bitcoin there are suddenly one there's suddenly one less Bitcoin in circulation and that is not a problem because it means that all the other Bitcoin increase in value but a plot of land that is unknown you have a correlation to a physical scares scarcity that just cannot be unmapped in the same way and that's still a problem to be solved but it is nexus about we are owns the guns of course in the case like that the code and right now the government is monopoly on force so exactly they can just say that confiscated another another thing is you've changed your name right Rick Rick Fox is not your real name I read it is well that's my real legal name but I did change I was born with a different real legal name yeah but will be amazing if you could just change your identity whenever you want it's using using a non-governmental block chain right that would be actually I think we're heading there I mean if you're looking at the people growing up on the net they are used changing their names and identities and personas as often if they change underwear or if not more often so this idea that that a government has a right to allow or not permit people what people should call themselves i don't think the internet generation is gonna stand for that right so that is going to happen in one way or another i'm sure yeah it's the reason either prices this a bit gun has been going down a lot if you lost any sleep on it or not ah well it's not funny looking at the charts but then again you know every time I've acted on the chance I've always bought I and soul blow so I'm kind of clenching my teeth and trying to learn from experience here I've lost man I've lost so much trying to catch the swings so I know that if I'm acting on it learning from experience i'm just gonna lose more than if I just sit it out you know because I you are a record saying during the London real episode a year ago to the price would eventually reach 225 million dollars do you stand by this forecast absolutely i mean that is oh I've run the numbers there is nothing changed in those numbers if you're just because the price is falling now that doesn't mean that the technology as such has lost any any potential applications it just means that somebody is selling a ton of Bitcoin which is fine it's an open market but if you're looking at where what bitcoin is going to out-compete kind of like how email are competed the postal service letters then the market value of that divided by the number of available Bitcoin it means that we're going to end up with a per bitcoin value on somewhere in the 22 25 million range that's not going to be next year obviously it's not going to be the year after that if you're looking at a new technology it typically takes 10 years from inception until it hits the mainstream and it takes another 10 years from hitting mainstream until it's a mature technology so if you're taking youtube as an example or say streaming video you saw that on porn sites porn reports always first with the porn sites 1994 1995 ish streaming streaming gif images very interesting concept very normal technology not really very useful how a youtube hit in 2004-2005 I'm not sure which year it was but it wasn't that range ten years after streaming video has started online but it wasn't today sighs when it launched today YouTube is huge I mean it is one of the it is essentially the television all right and what about the other what about the other protocols then because bitcoin blockchain is of course it's brilliant technology but it has been copied and improved by certain other competing chain each with their own native currency so how are you so sure that bitcoin is the blockchain that will dominate over time oh you you're not you're absolutely not sure about that i mean there is the network effect but the network effect can be overcome if you're i mean i'm essentially predicting here that it takes 10 years until it is mainstream and then another 10 years until everybody's using it so we're looking at a 20 year time frame we're looking at a bitcoin mainstream grating 2019-20 20 and then another 10 years after that until is is the thing it just needs it may it's going to hit mainstream usability some time 20 19 20 21 ott sure it's going to be Bitcoin i think it's going to be a blockchain technology but not the bit doesn't have to be the bitcoin blockchain there the what speaks for that is that there is so much money invested in mining of another Bitcoin specific hardware but it's going to take ton of money to supersede that but it but if you're looking at facebook facebook's dominance now that was by no means a given and it's been replaced with network effect and everything a number of times before facebook you had your myspace before myspace you had friendster before friendster you're at six degrees so they've all been replaced and there's nothing saying facebook is the end game either right okay let's take let's change gears here because we we also want to talk a little bit about civil liberties and freedom of speech just 22 starts with an interesting question from legal power again dick do you think the Paris attack makes European leaders join in an opposing liberties much like they might oppose a common threat like Bitcoin or maybe look phrase differently do you think it was a false flag attack I don't think it was a false flag attack i think it was a couple of deranged people who thought they were acting for some some religious entity and basically didn't understand the equivalent of the first commandment you shall not kill actually that's not the first commandment but you get the picture as in what part did you not understand about Islam being a religion of peace and Christian abhi in your religion of love but there's always this radicalization I mean if you close yourself into a small enough bubble you can get any crazy ideas and then start acting on them so I don't think it was a false flag attack I am concerned about the turtle utter and absolute hypocrisy by European leaders who are marching in Paris claiming to speak to march for freedom of speech and freedom of the press and then go home to jail journalists to introduce censorship David Cameron went home and said that I don't think there's that people should be allowed to communicate in a way we can't listen to I mean the guy obviously had no idea what he was saying he was essentially talking about out lowing face-to-face vocal cord communication because the government could wouldn't be able to listen to it exactly at anything if you are not allowed to whisper anymore exactly right so I'm not afraid so much for the technology I am afraid that with the political leaders there seems to be a cognitive disconnect that they actually think they are acting for freedom of speech and then they're doing the complete opposite and they know I don't think there are even aware of it and this goes back to what I was talking about analog equivalent rights earlier than you have the right sent a sealed letter in an envelope and not have it oh not have it opened in transit to the recipient that right was something our parents took for granted that right has not carried over to our children in the digital environment and I think that's one of the greatest and most dangerous failures of our generation to be honest exactly i mean i always like to quote voltaren in this case he disagreed with everything someone said as long as but he would keep them he would defend it to the death the right to say it exactly exactly exactly I mean III have this rant about freedom of speech that there's since the shadowy abdo attacks there have been so many people stating everywhere that every statement must be legal as long as it is legal essentially worded in many different ways but that's been the essence of it and if you're saying that you don't understand what freedom of speech is freedom of speech means that there is no test for whether what you say is legal or not it means that if you are uttering an opinion that is legal no matter what you are saying it's above the Pope said there are limits to freedom of expression when religion is insulted so that's what the Pope said in this case so it's it's so right it's a simple and one I know right it's the exact same thing that the obviously religion and other superstitions must must be allowed to criticize and satire is a very efficient form of critter of criticism it's a humor has always been one of the best avenues for criticism through through the medieval ages actually I mean if you look at the court jester with royalty they were always the only ones not subject to censorship and they were the only ones allowed to heckle the royalty and nobility because they were not dangerous because they they pose no threat so they were the only ones not subject to censorship right Elder Holland said we had a case in it were cartoonist is a I'm sorry I lost you there for a minute could you repeat from the Dutch politicians your child preserve freedom speech while their acts in 2008 where a certain cartoonist was arrested by supporting because of the cartoons at the same time now Dutch politicians are trying to defend the freedom of speech which of course is also very critical yep and and I think my my I think my greatest worry is that people are claiming to defend freedom of speech without understanding what it is I mean this simple tests this simple criteria that if you're making it if you're uttering a political opinion that should not be subject to test of legality remember remember now that not one western country meets this very simple bar not one there are always exceptions and those exceptions means mean that you have the legal test so I'm concerned about select exceptions for example if you're in a in a cinema and you're and you're shouting fire and you get a sensible beautiful example let's talk a bit about that that was uttered by a judge named I forget his name Owen Wilson partner than know that's an actor doesn't what doesn't matter what the guy's name was but that this was this was stayed ah dilip hi sorry carry on all right so we were just talking about should it be legal to shout fire in a crowded theater and that that's that's as an on freedom of speech so that particular example is a great example because the judge stating that opinion in a court case and a freedom of speech cold case from from world war one retracted his own statement later and said that this was a horrible example I absolutely disapprove of how it has been abused to advocate censorship and the court case itself was overturned as well 40 years later so should it be legal to shout fire in a crowded theater yes absolutely should you be allowed to cause harm to others what knowingly cause harm to others now that's a separate issue yeah could you repeat that because you were breaking up at the end oh with a separate issue and then kind of so I was saying that should you be allowed to utter any opinion absolutely as in i'm sitting in this theater and what I think there's a fire up ahead should you however inciting panic in knowingly causing harm to other people if that is your motive rather than stating on opinion that is that is a different thing entirely and it's important to keep these these things in mind here that they're actually different concepts right interesting what's your take on dead in Salem um I'm sorry jumping in in the middle of a conversation here I'm sorry yeah we're talking felis feels right we're talking about freedom of speech where there should be any limitations on that or whether people should and whether it depends on the intent and what are some one is just stating his opinion or trying to harm someone maybe you can give your opinion on the events with embarrass this weekend and how do you see that playing out for civil liberties for for Europeans um I have thought about that a lot and especially what Rick is saying we're having this whole debate about freedom of speech which I think in the age of prosecution of journalists is hilarious onto itself but in in in the am in a society where we think we should be able to say everything should we say everything like just just to hurt people or to provoke people is that is that smart should we condone that should we make it illegal or should we should we hold up freedom of speech as as as the ultimate goal and I think it's very difficult especially and obviously I'm very for freedom of speech freedom of information freedom of press all these things but I do you think that freedom of speech is probably aimed at a higher goal rather than just insulting the right having the right to insult Pete well I guess insulting people is a different thing then and whether people feel insulted and I think there's a distinction between the two so am there's my thought on that but it's a thought process and still going on that being said I mean I just find it completely bizarre what's going on right now in the world with with Charlie Hebdo and that there's so many people who are are willing to protest on the street so of well different cities across the world I guess well you know journalists are getting this is about a cartoon in like there's lots of you know heared willders our own killer illness has tried to ban cartoons that were in his view anti-semitic and nobody was like nobody was worried about that at the time so it's quite bizarre that now all of a sudden it's like hyped up to be this really important thing well as in other cases people seem to just all I care you're making a couple of rayna's definitely double standards you're making a couple of great points here and so I'm thinking I particularly want to highlight how you're you're highlighting the difference between whether something whether piece of speech or r during an opinion is morally okay and whether it's legally okay and what a huge difference that it difference that is a lot of people like to conflate these two as in saying that no I don't think it should be illegal to after this horrible opinion and a lot of people will strike at me saying that one so you think it's okay to to enrage all of this all of these people and a I have to explain that no and I think it's okay to be an i think it's i think it can be morally repulsive without anisette without a necessity for armed police to come and arrest you there's there's a there's one line where you're not being nice to other people but the line we're a nation state should bring out armed police to be prepared to use deadly force against you is a line that's much much further out in the sand and it's important to not conflate these two and when people do point it out I think in the in the days after to Charlie Hebdo events of people have had a visit from authorities after tweeting some things the right which is just bizarre my mind blowing and I mean not illegal things not not death threats or any any of that just you know using their their right to freedom ugh and yep so there's definitely a lot of a lot of stuff going on in that field right now you know all the more all the more reason to vote pirate party obviously Beckham headless it you moved to Berlin that recently has that to do with the deterioration of liberties in Holland or was the first cemeteries I definitely feel more of an atmosphere in a freedom in in Berlin not that it's like the ultimate free place I guess there are hardly any of those places left in Europe but it's definitely a little bit more liberal than both politically as culturally in Berlin rather than amsterdam i think in amsterdam we still sort of up hold this view that we have of ourselves as this like liberal open-minded place and it's it's I've just seen a change over the past 10 years 15 years and to be something completely different and I don't feel like there's any benefits left and that a big city should should offer anonymity freedom freedom to express yourself freedom to you know go out meet people even if it's two o'clock in the morning stuff like that and I definitely think that there's more um I'd feel a little bit more at home in Berlin for that matter yeah we spoke them and some time ago also on this show with re encompass a Dutch hacktivist that also moves to Berlin and are you in touch with him absolutely um I love our encompasses he's a great guy and I talked to him quite regularly he's helping me move and that's good and we talk about this topic a lot and he's been a bit of an influence for me for the decision for me to move to Berlin hit and not only him but a lot of other people who live in Holland who kind of see what's going on and see how society is changing for the worse and it's going really pretty rapidly are openly talking about about getting out which is just a completely sad and surreal thing in itself but but people are looking for a future elsewhere interesting so now you say could be the time for the pirate party to to blossom then right because of everything that's going on and do you see any any growth and within pirate party in Holland or Germany um I I do feel that the interest is there very much and what is still lagging is I think people want to join the pirate party make a difference put some actual time and effort in there people just want like these p / fect people or perfect party to vote for and like put all their trust in which of course would be nice if we could offer that and but we're just like a bunch of people a small group of people worldwide who are trying to make a difference we have a great program and and we have some really great ideas that I think will bring us into the next 50 years but we need more people to to make this happen who will join the party and actively make a difference instead of like sitting at home on the couch waiting for voting hangouts this doesn't go well you wish how's Ecuador well I've not seen any pirates here but there are some interesting things going on in but let's not let's not talk about equity because they were needing our free another still ours but again if we if we talked about how to grow terms and organization and of course your boot comes in handy and because I right it's for my said I just loved it I'm gang you and tell me a bit more about your book and and also maybe swarm ups this new platform you have and how that could propel growth forever pirate parties across the world rights one wise essentially what it does is that it observes that in the past you ha you needed to maybe hire 100 people full time to accomplish something so you gon 40,000 work hours per week out of this workforce but that is 100 people x 40 right no that's 4,000 so you got 4,000 well goes out of out of this workforce but per week budgin also needed to pay a hundred 100 wages right what we can do today with the enemy is that we can scale and swarm this effort are and push it out to the edges in a much more efficient manner so you can recruit 2,000 volunteers who will contribute to two hours per week and you'll still get the same effort you'll still get your 4,000 hours put into this collaborative effort but you get 2 additional wins first your volunteers will be much more passionate than your employees ever were and second you don't have to pay them so everybody wins and the movement as such becomes much more decent july's much more agile and much more scalable than any movement before it and swarm wise is about this kind of leadership by inspiring because you cannot you need to work with volunteers in a different manner entirely than if you're just bringing somebody in on the clock for a paycheck you need to lead by inspiring you need to lead by doing and swarm wises about that and swarm hops is essentially the software counterpart to that book mean we have if you're looking at open source and free software that movement has at 40 years to develop its tools to collaborate if you're looking at Civic software however if you're looking at civic movements if you're looking at policy making movements those tools do not exist that decentralized collaboration does not really exist so swarm ops is kind of one stab in the ground if you like to just to organize people it's it's in alpha and you can find it at would easiest way would probably be to go to devs warm ups calm and try out the sandbox dev dots warm ups com so that's a work in progress essentially so anti pirate party's going to use it software the switch by party has been using for a while so has the finish there are other pie parties interested in using it and we'll see how adoption catches up i'm having bit cautious about overselling it while it's still in our fun features are being added but it's certainly based on usable at this point perfect interesting well we already am form one of 40 minutes in this hangout any closing thoughts either from you and said are from you a trick on Bitcoin or privacy or freedom of speech well privacy is maybe not like we're using google a Google product and I'm sorry for the privacy it's out there I mean I was discussing with raiga soon as we have a better version like an open source version will go hangout on air will use it of course but yeah I guess yeah mega is working on a chat application that's encrypted and so afraid that's not really interesting seeing how that works out I would love for something that like that to be there yeah encryption is not the issue usability as the issue everybody is doing good encryption where every there are a lot of tech people doing good encryption the problem is tech people generally can't do usability and so you need you need the two to converge but I've been talking a lot about the long-term long-term developments of the blockchain ledger and this hangout and says so what are we end with your thoughts on that where's the blockchain heading um uh uh I guess we have no idea which is really interesting I'm talking to some people in Berlin and who work at etherium which is really interesting and and I had a hard time grasping like what what the possibilities are of this technique and if they are used if that's always going to be for the good of the people so to say and what really sparked my interest was when somebody said we can block chain history in a way that can't be can be altered after the fact and that really sparked my interest because I definitely think that there's a couple of things in history that might not always be represented in the way that it actually happened at the time and I think there's like this great saying it says the winner rights of history and if somebody else had one you know it would have been bringing up completely different and so that's where really sparked my interests like how to use this technique for something of a greater good and I real I'm really hopeful that it that it can and it will well those are beautiful words to end this hang out with so thank thanks guys so maybe briefly where can people find you a ring thank yourself like you Paul I'm i have a blog at Falcon unit that's FAL KDA and net and there's contact details right there reflecting on Scylla where can you find you twitter i'm always on twitter hit me up i thought what a break for a few days I did but I'm back and rocking it I had my first fights right as i got back today so yeah lots of interesting stuff going on a twitter is usually the other way around you know Twitter makes you have makes you want to have drinks with people you've never met him face makes you want to throw drinks at people you you consider your friends I think that is very true yep Truman right well thanks guys and let's do it again I need to some looking forward to it thank yourself thank you Paul I can see again what cheers