Stefan Molyneux and Jeffrey Tucker discuss Stefan's upcoming speech on how bitcoin could end war, the evils of fiat currency, the democratic nature of bitcoin, bitcoin as an economic safe-haven and what would happen if Stefan ruled the world.
Transcript
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all right so i thought we'd uh get started in the cozy what 18 minutes that we we have to solve the world's problems i hope you're all going to come i'm going to do a good speech tonight sorry not that this isn't going to be what are you speaking on bitcoin versus war oh are you going back through the the history of central banks and central banks and uh well so i had a researcher pull together real previous short preview trying to find out the costs of war is really tough because it's all self-reported and it doesn't count in the long-term costs of war like long-term health care and benefits and also um the war is often funded with bonds right which have to be paid back over time and all that so he basically took and also cpi inflation's all lies anyway right so he did cost of war relative to gold so he took the price of gold at the time of the war took the official cost and converted it from world war one yeah but your benchmark right because that's the beginning of central banking yeah yeah so yeah so i'm going to talk to that and basically it's going to be audience participation we're going to try and figure out how we can use bitcoin to start a war so now we're going to try and test the architecture and we're going to brainstorm and try and figure out if we were evil uh or we worked for the government right [Laughter] something's not right about that i'll work that out but um yeah we should discuss how we could use the architecture to start a war and if we can't then we have a cure for war in bitcoin which i think is quite important this is an unexplored area and it's it's it's so obvious though once you realize that the very first big program funded by central banking was world war one yeah yeah i mean it wasn't it wasn't scientific monetary policy it wasn't low on unemployment it wasn't low inflation it wasn't the end of business cycles no it was the beginning of total war that was the beginning of the central bank and it could not i mean even on a gold standard you know the cost of world war ii for just america which was never invaded was more than all the gold that had ever been mined in human history so you i mean even with the gold standard you couldn't have yeah that's why you had to get rid of the gold standard in beginning in 1913 and then all the way through the war and then vietnam broke bretton woods and the convertibility of u.s debt to gold in the 71 so do you find yourself ever more sort of conscious of the costs of of nationalization of money for humanity i mean this happened to me when i when i discovered bitcoin it was like okay here this is weird this is a monetary technology we should have had all along yeah and we we've missed this development for a hundred years it might have come along a long time ago yeah my argument fiat currency is the greatest virus ever to strike the planet because it causes so many deaths hundreds of millions yeah absolutely yeah and it's a little strange too isn't it because you figured money is half of every economic transaction and for like the last hundred years has been basically produced by managed by uh uh directed by by states all over the world and and yet uh we've not into i don't feel like i've been entirely aware of just how intensely costly this has been for civilization yeah no i mean the fiat currency is like this ultimate beheading paper cut to humanity like it just it's like this massive guillotine with government money coming down 100 times a second on people because you can't make these wars you can't sustain these wars you can't possibly pay for these wars using existing assets now i mean the best cure for bloodlust is the bill the butcher's bill right never comes to the people or it's so diffused now people in america are like oh man i can't get a job i lost my house it's like you remember cheering that war in you know payback's a you know sorry uh you you pay for your bloodlust i don't care how diffuse it is and in many ways even the great depression was was sort of the fallout of world war one i mean the bills still hadn't been paid well i mean the weimar republic hyperinflation was driven by paying off the reparations war debt which was going to go until the 1980s for germany and so you destroy the middle class with hyperinflation you open up the power vacuum for hitler to come in that's it uh really there were two wars that were an effect of monetary policy yeah you know the cause of war is always so confusing to people but it is really just an effect of monetary policy because this monetary policy gives license to the state to do these things otherwise it's just not possible free evil yeah you know whatever you subsidize you get more off and this fiat currency is the ultimate subsidy for evil and uh so yeah i think that the evils of the 20th century have almost everything to do with monetary policy do you know the amer america has spent much more on the war on terror than it did on the second world war it's amazing to get what what they say is 50 al-qaeda operatives right it costs more than to take down the entire nazi empire you know it's like wow those guys are tough i mean what are they each one of them is a panzer division or something like that i mean holy crap they're like superman you know i laugh at your rockets you know i mean the amount of money that they have to spend for these hit jobs is even if we assume it's true which it probably isn't it's astounding yeah just how much it is yeah and then you also have the the problem of politicians constantly claiming that they're they're they're going to get the system under control we're going to pass the balance budget amendment we've got new legislation right we're going to cut the budget we'll elect the right politicians they'll cut the budget and get this whole insane system under control but but it can't be controlled no and this is just just to lure you back in right like every time a guy beats up his wife he shows up the next day with flowers right because you know he's worried about her leaving so they always come back but don't worry we're we've got it now this is the water end all war okay well next one no next one no next one right we got it under control we got a tea party don't worry we're fine right i mean even george washington what i mean he goes to war against king george for a three percent tax on t the moment he gets power imposes a 25 tax on whiskey you know which for american settlers tea whiskey you know i mean how are you going to live in pennsylvania sober you can't you can't it's not possible so i mean they're really hitting them where it hurts it's like whoa i'm a farmer in pennsylvania and i can't get my whiskey oh that's it that's a bad thing you know it's a very interesting thing to think that prohibitionism really began at the founding of the country what do people really want oh yeah we'll tax that i want to do a show uh for a tax day you know this this obama me like you didn't build that this whole thing popping into the kid building a second car you didn't build that you know that whole thing that came around before but you know the government is just so horrible in a way because i mean the the genius it took to create and propagate bitcoin i mean that's i mean to me that's like a laser focus of human genius and the government's like yeah we'll tax that like did you make it did you create anything do you know how to no but we'll tax it you know it's like you didn't make it they say to us and therefore we like you didn't make any of this stuff and you get to tackle oh someone built a house i don't know how to build a house but i can tax it oh does somebody want to have their cattle go on land i don't know how didn't build the land don't know anything about that don't know about cattle farmers but i shouldn't know how to order 200 dea but stefan like like like 24 months ago uh people in the power elite structure were making fun of bitcoin you know uh if you raise the subject of bitcoin at a federal reserve conference people just just laugh and say well that's the stupidest thing ever yeah and and now you know here we are in uh the spring of 2014 and and the state's you know actively plotting is it is it a is it a currency will this tax it is it property will tax that but there's a presumption that it's real and sadly that's the best you can hope for is the government starts to profit on it because then they won't ban it that's the this is the best opportunity we have to not have it banned just have the government get addicted to the money flow right yeah but it's big as they say right but i'm actually hoping for even more corruption than that um i'm i'm hoping that right i'm hoping the politicians will figure out that this is a great way to accept and and yeah bribes graft i mean if they can use bitcoin to do this then maybe we're safe yeah it's yeah absolutely yeah if a politician is in swiss bank account yeah if it goes off banks yeah if it goes off book and completely under the table and it's untraceable and they can run their campaigns off it man oh man they'll never they'll never get rid of it yeah yeah i mean what half the political fortunes in america founded during prohibition i mean the whole foundation of the kennedy's money was prohibition right yeah yeah make something illegal so anyway i hope that they will start accepting campaign contributions anonymously through bitcoin and that way for sure it's not going anywhere but it's probably not going anywhere anyway do you agree that with bitcoin we have something completely new um living on a distributed network that you can't kill open source software development so it can always be improved and and you're consisting basically of mathematics that the state can't control living in the cloud that states notoriously bad at managing i mean have we have we have we stumbled upon something that that actually sort of has the state met its match with something like cryptocurrency well i mean it's the worst thing for a government which is it's real democracy yeah right so i mean the government loves paper democracy you know like well you know you can vote for whoever has been bribed the most to steal from you but this this is real democracy and that the rules of bitcoin have to be accepted by the majority of people in order for it to propagate and so this is a real example of what government claims to be which is like the worst enemy of what government is right so i think it's got uh i think it's got massive a huge potential for just the rewriting are you interested at all in um like 12 months ago there weren't that many altcoins around but now there's tens of thousands are you interested in this movement of altcoins you know in addition to bitcoin as a kind of a reflection of sort of the way people can exercise their cultural political preferences within a market context i was thinking about this the other day because i met a a young man who's like dedicated to peercoin for example because of its ideological structures different from for bitcoin and i thought wow that is really great imagine a future in which you sort of express express your cultural values and your political preferences through the coins you you mine and that you buy rather than sort of resorting to the political process where which is a zero-sum game i mean we already have alt coins in the current economy they're called gift certificates right they're called starbucks cards and all that right these are all you know canadian thai has its own money which actually a friend of mine paid his way through thailand brothels using canadian tire money because they didn't know that it wasn't a real currency but that's uh another story for another time but um uh so yeah i mean we already have all these old cars i love the fact that there are lots of old currencies because then whoever wins is the clear winner yeah you know so so i mean yeah it's a fair like you know the fastest runner is you know the most people in the race and this guy wins right so he's the fastest right so i think to me the more competition allows the market leader to be really legitimately you know with no doubt the market leader and i think that will always be bitcoin myself it's just you know adoptability and so on right yeah like nobody's going to really improve on tcps why bother right it's like oh i've got a better width for your railroad tracks actually all our wheels are kind of anyway but so i think that there is a clear winner and so i think the more competition the more altcoins the better and i think that people can give good deals on all coins because you know they kind of have to return in some ways to that at least for now but but but truly i'm unwilling to say that actually because i mean the world is so full of surprises these days and i never imagined five years ago that we'd be seeing anything like bitcoin you know i mean having studied monetary policy for for many years i never imagined that we would get to the point where the market would actually generate its own money it would be sustainable and unusable on a global basis i mean this is very inspiring to me it's it's not just about bitcoin it's about a way to build a new world free of coercion and violence you know well i mean it is free market money has been the dream of free marketers forever because people confuse government money like trade in government money but the free market but once you have government money you always have to have government control of interest rates you have government control of money and government control of interest rates you no longer have a free market that's really true we haven't had a free market for a hundred years yeah you can't clean your hands washing them in blood and that's the way it works right yeah but here's the thing in the past we thought the only way to reform the system was to convince our leaders to do the right thing yeah and it hasn't worked out right it turns out they don't really want to do the right thing oh no no i don't want to be in charge of an evil empire to do good i mean you know i'm going to work the system from within you know i'm going to get swallowed by the shark and pray for it to be a dolphin anyway but no so yeah but the uh the idea of convincing evil people to give up their power over human beings you know i mean you don't become a dairy farmer to turn your cows free that's you know the only reason you want to do it is to keep them in the enclosure right and i think i think that this there has been a competition that's interesting in the 20th century um and the 19th century which is war is so resource consumptive right that the country with the most resources generally wins you know everyone says well it's the strategy but it's all a war of attrition so if you have the most manpower and you have the most resources then you can win the war but the way you get resources is give your people some economic freedom so i think the economic freedoms that we've been achieved that have been achieved people think it's a victory of ideology i think it's a victory of needing to feed the war machines right like give people more economic freedom they'll be more productive they'll give you more technology they'll give you more value right so it's like if free-range chickens give you 10 times the eggs guess what they you know they're out of their cages but that doesn't mean that the next step is freedom it's just more profitable to have free-range chickens in that sense than it is to put them in a tiny box and i think we've mistaken the economic freedoms we've gotten to some sort of ideological victory that we can then pursue to the next step when what it is is better like tax war livestock management techniques well it was true also in the roman empire of course i mean that's roma's you know a fairly free economy by by standards at the time but then the state was fed you know this vast tax revenue which caused it to be more and more and more imperialist yeah i mean and i mean the end of the roman empire when you had i think rome had a population of a million and a half people yeah and in a couple years it went down to 17 000 because currency is the lifeblood of cities if you don't have currency you can't have cities because you have to have something to trade with the farmers right i mean the farmers want stuff from the cities and the cities want the farm produce and so wherever this is why it's so great that there's any kind of alternative currency being set up because it is a way for people to trade and keep cities alive during whatever transit but until very recently that this was hard it was hard money it was gold silver but now what do you think about the prospect that bitcoin has become a kind of safe haven uh i guess we're going to discover this right i mean if we have another banking crisis which surely we will in the next few years uh what do you think about the prospect of bitcoin will become the the safe haven of choice that it'll that'll propel people into the crypto world as there's never been before well i think that that's inevitable you know i had this debate with peter schiff about about gold and of course gold has its advantages which but it has its disadvantages and that you can find it and steal it right i mean if you know it's like in the army if if it moves move it if it doesn't move paint it but in the government if it's valuable steal it right you can't find this stuff right the cryptocurrency so my hope my hope my hope is that the political leaders start to take refuge in bitcoin yeah you know and and then they really get what's possible like i had to send some money the other day have you who's done this recently gone to a bank and tried to send some money oh listen oh my god it's just crazy it's just you know it's an ancient system it's like trying to run a video game on an abacus you know it's like it's insane it's like i'll need your address i'll need the phone number i'll you know 35 bucks you gotta you know and blah blah blah and it's like what are you kidding are you like releasing pigeons last time i had to do this two years ago i spoke with spoken brazil and got paid for it it took six weeks to get my money just through a bank transfer because there's so many complications paperwork confusions missed numbers uh rejections approvals blah blah blah this time i spoke in brazil uh last week and it took about 10 minutes to get paid he asked my bitcoin address i sent it i got it you know this is just such an obviously superior technology yeah in every single respect there there are kids i know kids who are in high school now that trade bitcoin all the time you know for uh for various things um pokemon cards kamaguchi's i assume yeah yeah i understand magic the gathering right i hired one of them to do a job and i was going to pay him cash and i got his bank account number and it took fully five days for this for the money to arrive in his bank and he's like what the what are you doing wrong that is taking me five days to get back well you have to explain to him that they spray paint gold paint on the back of a tortoise they release it into the wild with you know after smelling your gym sock and it finds you and that's you know that's the technology that we're using hopefully it doesn't go through nevada it hasn't been improved in decades really and they still think it's modern it's it's very silly yeah now you were an early adopter in the bitcoin space right i mean you were accepting bitcoin what two years ago lamar yeah i think three four yeah 2011 2011 yeah early 2011 we started accepting bitcoins was there ever a time when you thought it was maybe not real that it was magic you know silly silly money that was a ponzi scheme that something was wrong or you always believed it no i mean i'm a software guy like i started coding when i was 11. yeah and i sort of understood the possibilities i certainly didn't think it was going to go as high as it did i mean i don't think anyone could have expected that that's right but uh no i thought it was great i was willing to hold take it and hold it uh um i you know it's email versus postal mail right uh it's you know but it's even better than email i mean it's it's so i mean to me anything you can do digitally that priorly was done in some sort of physical means is a vast improvement and so it seemed inevitable that it was going to be worth more and more um but uh i certainly didn't expect it to get that big that would be ridiculously prescient plus i would have you know sold my kidney and invested but uh it is uh um yeah so i i was accepting it early and promoting it early but i didn't expect it to go this big do you it took something like 20 20 years for email to go from sort of technologically viable to mainstream use right um how would you what is your expectation concerning bitcoin faster has to be yeah because email was competing against like inter-office mail you know those tubes you can still see them in some buildings in toronto these tubes you know from the movie brazil they shoot all these things through tubes right so it was competing against that and mail service was not deteriorating but bitcoin is competing against central currency cash which is deteriorating right so you have a robust and expanding and improving architecture competing against the decaying architecture which i think really is that you can't get faster well also history in general is speeding up i mean thanks to communication technology people know about things faster than they otherwise would yeah yeah i think once there's a way for people to trade them more easily yeah that's not you know rolling the dice and crossing your fingers with the integrity of people in japan uh it is uh uh i think then it will be you know and i saw some technology so i went to the please everyone go to the vendor tables if you get a chance what these guys are doing i mean if i wasn't wrapped up in a philosophy show i'd be like all over bitcoin like like white on rice and um so but but the stuff that they're doing to facilitate trading secure trading anonymous trading once that breaks through and you get an app where you can securely and and you know pings your phone to confirm it and all that kind of stuff i think then i think that the trade is still challenging how to get it how to trade it is still challenging for a lot of people which wasn't really the case with with email but there are so many smart people working on solving that i think that's just the whole space has changed in the course of 12 months i mean a year ago today most of these vendors you know were just a dream right and now they're really existing uh all coins pretty much didn't even exist uh i remember when bitcoin achieved thirty dollars you know people were screaming it's a it's a bubble you know yeah and it's gonna come crashing down in a matter of minutes you know but i see skepticism sort of melting away yeah just over the last 12 14 months well i mean i went through an ipo in the 90s and a lot of people like they look at the up price and the down price like this is a negative but it's not if there's never a down price nobody's cashing out right you you need people to sell these bitcoins a so other people can get them who want them more and b so they're profitable right if nobody ever sold a bitcoin the price would be zero right so the fact that there's peaks and people are like great i want to sell and then there's right it's the allocation of resources to people but the longer term time frame that's who you want bitcoin to be held by people with a longer term time frame of its value the people who want to sell in the short run are really driving the value as a whole so it's like oh it went to 1200 oh now it's down to 400. this is exactly what you want in a space like this you want people to be getting the money cashing it out and transferring it to people with a longer term time so it's it's it's volatility you see as a strength oh absolutely if it wasn't volatile it wouldn't be in play it wouldn't be profitable people wouldn't be interested in it because they couldn't make money from it uh so no this is exactly what you wanted this i know it's a little exciting at times but this is exactly what you want in this kind of space you know if it goes down to two bucks it won't but if it goes down to two bucks so much the better then a whole bunch of people will buy it at two bucks and use it as a trading mechanism and then the price will go even higher over time i think of it as a first world problem people complain about the volatile bitcoin i'm like you probably you never imagined that you know five years ago there would be such a thing in existence as bitcoin now all you do is complain about is volatility you know it's pretty silly oh there's a there's a meme you know that meme with the lady with the first world problems you know like this she's like my husband all these bitcoins i don't know how to spend and my favorite one of that is the same same picture it was last april she said my bitcoin's worth the same amount uh today as it was yesterday oh yeah oh no oh no that was what it was like you know soaring up you know yeah ten dollars a day yeah and so people are still they're pricing bitcoin relative to fiat currency and and that's you know what but when bitcoin will really achieve its own is when bitcoin is the standard of value like i know a bitcoin is two cars or something like that yeah within firms and things like that yeah or you you think of it relative to a car or a house relative to then relative to fiat currency because right now saying bitcoin is worth x fiat currency which is like you know one ounce of goodness is worth nine pounds of evil you know it's just not the right metric you want you want bitcoin to be relative to goods rather than to fear currency but we're still uh i think transitioning through that process right and we probably will stay there for very long oh yeah for sure people are so used to that paradigm of what's a bitcoin worth well i think a feared currency is like no no that's you know one email is not worth uh you know half a letter you know it just doesn't make any sense well this is particularly bad for americans you know we where you have no experience in competitive currencies at all this is different from canada uh where people are used to accepting canadian dollars or canadian dollars or as americans call it monopoly money i think that's the multi-colored and you know it can't quite be real a little silly yeah who's the old bag on the currency i don't i don't understand it yeah it's all plastic and everything but um in latin america of course it's very common for people to trade many currencies at once and because they trade cell phone minutes as andreas has pointed out and so on right they have phones with leftover cell minutes and you can trade it for eggs and they become things that you can use for internet access or phone calls to people and stuff so i mean currency in south america i don't know for those who don't know the history of argentina anyone it's a boring topic but you know in the 1920s argentina had the same gdp as america same per capita uh money as america they were first world country right and then they're like hey socialism sounds great and so they've lived with decayed and exploding currencies for so long that they've developed all of these alternate trading mechanisms but as the reserve currency americans haven't really had to do that quite as much yet but that certainly will be coming i mean that will be coming so andrea says we have five minutes left should we take some uh well yeah any questions any comments what happened to this oh we're doing that tonight that's going to be part of my speech tonight so bring your fu manchu mustaches where we'll be stroking them and plotting the overthrow of all the known virtues in the world no like i really want the combined intelligence of people to try to use bitcoin to start a war because if smart people can't do it that's a good you know if if bitcoin is a cure for war like i'd really like that to be talked about a little more so that the speech tonight will be doing that rather brother i think that's a plus you know i sort of feel like i'm giving the speech with like half a billion ghosts over my shoulder saying bitcoin might mean we didn't die for nothing right it literally to me is that serious a topic but we'll have a lot of fun talking about it tonight especially rates str's okay okay but special drawing rights are just an an index number aren't they of uh prevailing after the currencies 2008 banking crisis they discussed about it yeah and it never materialized right you know this was examinated it's not enough yeah it's nice to see they do exist we had to come and explain um bitcoin technology to incuta and it was i love this i'm not a skeptic around it but there's a theoretical somebody can make a theoretical argument around it bitcoin code base yes has been audited by many many developers across the globe but at the same time you want to take down the um load of that conspiracy no let's we'll talk about it and it's nice to see the un starting to experiment with tyrannical concepts because normally they're yeah no we'll try it tonight yeah so we'll talk about all that tonight and then we're going to try to imagine you know if if we became rulers of a country tomorrow the first thing i would do is just say we're not using any kind of fear currency anymore right bitcoin's right there what what's what would society look like if you do if you became the rule of country is there anything you would actually do at all yeah yeah no absolutely i would for sure i mean you privatize the currency i mean that's all you need to do everything follows from that like imagine imagine a country which only used bitcoin even for what we call now government services and we'll talk about that tonight i mean what a fascinating concept you couldn't have a system that we have right now without fiat currency like you couldn't have anything close to it there'd be no such thing as leviathan state really no no i mean you if you wanted to start the nsa you'd have to go all the people and say hey will you donate some money so we can spy on you yeah are you down for that this to me is the most exciting thing about bitcoin i love it sort of sort of bottom up revolutionary aspects i mean the fact that that there are thousands tens of thous hundreds of thousands of full-time economists who have studied monetary policy and think imagine themselves to be experts and how to manage the nation's money they were all bypassed entirely with the release of this one protocol on a free internet forum you know it was just a revolutionary idea i mean satoshi never went to the senate banking committee and never went to the fed never published his research in american economic review i mean it's it's the most hilariously anti-elite you know sort of revolutionary strategy ever yeah just to throw it out there oh here's my new money that i wrote you know if you like it use it you know uh it took 10 months and it obtained value yeah it was beautiful beautiful and i i think even today i mean you can you can look through economics journals and not find any articles on bitcoin at all they're just sort of starting to appear but you know they're appearing but they're already out of date by the time they appear and the revolution is happening without the intellectuals which i think is a lovely thing oh yeah oh no god the intellectuals don't get me started anybody has any questions comments you know one of the things that's stopping this adoption that i found in larger corporations that are older uh the accounting departments resist it the the lawyers that are and compliance officers and the firms are resisting that just basically because they're confused the newest firms that have been founded you know in the last four or five years are much more open to it this is why overstock jumped on on bitcoin before amazon essentially well they're also probably concerned about this regime uncertainty right with regards to how is this going to work from a regulatory standpoint so they've got wherever you've got lawyers you've got this paralysis of like this negative consequences in the advance of bitcoin more than anything else yeah this regime uncertainty the sense of fear you know so the state but the state can slow it down but it can't stop it yes sir so would you rather want uh guidelines and taxation and energy for uncertainty for private companies that introduced a small would prevent any regulation at all well you but you'll get both right so the the government will work to try and manage it and tax it because you know there's a parasite there's a new host that's already gonna go in and and then there'll be people who are like i don't care what the government does i'm anonymous i'm tor enabled and i'm just to go and do my thing right so you will have these parallel worlds at the same time so you don't think that a technology would come along to make bitcoin or cryptocurrencies uncensorable such that amazon would have no problem amazon would not risk that because they're too big a target for the government to go after and so um when you work for a big company you have a whole legal department and as a ceo you will have a legal and fiduciary responsibility to follow the advice of the legal department and the legal department is in a wait and see at the moment and you actually you you can't like you can go to jail for going against the advice of the legal department and legal departments are very cautious right because legal departments like regulators they don't pay the price for things that don't happen they pay the price for bad things that do happen right like the fda right i mean one drug gets through that kills one chihuahua and they you know they all go insane right but half a million people die uh because some drug that's approved in europe isn't approved here and nobody has a problem with it yes sir and that's good they probably have some concern about legal regulatory yeah i just looked over yesterday there seems to be at least i keep hearing rumors that there's a possibility that apple is going to loosen up on on their policies but there are people at this conference that have already come up with some really nice elegant workarounds to apple it's also a problem that apple itself has a proprietary culture you know they think that everything cool can be invented by their technicians their intellectuals their employees and anything else out of apple is basically inferior and that seems to be the corporate uh what jobs resisted the marketplace in the first iphone he didn't want all apple apps the idea that other people could develop for it was they had to really fight him to to get that put in so i think it's very bearish sign for for for apple in general uh their attitude and i use an iphone and it and i think it's awful actually i i use an iphone and i can't i think it's awful i'm ready to make the switch you know i mean even if they open up to uh bitcoin wallets at this point i think it's just really bad what they did earlier but it was about 10 months ago or something like that it was just really really rotten shouldn't be forgiven so i think actually we're out of time yeah we don't want to push the next people but thanks everyone for your time i'll be speaking tonight at six so come on bye thank you thank you [Applause]